The ULTIMATE Tout/Anti-Tout Argument

Let's get to the bottom of this, but let's stick to a few ground rules first.

1. Keep it civil - I know it's the Rubber Room, but for the sake of this discussion, try and refrain from name-calling.

2. Back up what you say with facts. We want a real discussion of this matter. Not lies being flung in hopes of furthering your argument.

3. Try and use the "Reply with Quote" feature if possible to make the discussion easier to read.

Ok, let me start by posing the normal arguments, which I believe 100%. If a tout can win you money, then why is that a bad thing? There are many people who like to slander touts but have little problem with investors when in reality they are very much the same thing. The only difference is that the stock market looks to be fairly volatile right now. You give money to make you money back. It's a risk. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I know there are bad touts out there, and I in no way support them, but some people work hard and are worth the money. I like to consider myself in that group despite my poor NBA showing. I'd love to hear why an investor you pay to handle your money is better than paying a tout to theoretically handle your money.

Another common argument is that if touts were any good, they wouldn't have to sell their picks. I really find no merit in this. Just because I can make 10K a season, why not sell my picks and make another 5K? Money is money. Going back to the stock investor thing, William Buffett is a very good investor. He makes millions of dollars, and is great at what he does. However, he has a few high-profile people who give him money to invest because he gets a cut. The guy is a billionaire many times over, but a little more money never hurt anyone. Any thoughts?

Try to avoid the bad touts. There are different types. There are the liars. You know the guys. The ones with 10 GOY's, the one's that claim LOCK every pick, the ones that give both sides out. I'm talking about people like me in this thread however. People that do writeups. People that spend time researching. I'd just like to hear some thoughts. Try and respect the rules of the thread, and I will be back later to read/respond.

MBpicks.com

[This message was edited by The General on 02-16-03 at 05:05 PM.]

[This message was edited by Jake Thompson on 02-16-03 at 10:44 PM.]

 

" but some people work hard and are worth the money. I like to consider myself in that group despite my poor NBA showing"

After ONE season of baseball how can you even make a statemant like that. For you to consider yourself worth the money is laughable. I gave out "my buddy's pick" in college to fade for free, He has gone 6-24 what can I charge?
You say you work hard? exactly what kind of work do you do? Stats, trends? who cares all that imfo is free and is available to anyone who wants to take the time to study it.

"If a tout can win you money, then why is that a bad thing?

They can't win you money!!!! NO WAY NEVER!! What they can do is give the junkie, degenerate, troubled gambler a possible quick fix. Maybe a week or maybe a mont of winners but eventualy the juice and the fees will eat you alive


"Another common argument is that if touts were any good, they wouldn't have to sell their picks. I really find no merit in this. Just because I can make 10K a season, why not sell my picks and make another 5K? Money is money"

As Fat Frank tried to explain to you pay touts for their LOSERS not their winners. Why is this so hard for you to understand? When have you personaly made 10k? being up 10 units (20.00 dollars being a unit) is NOT the same thing as winning 10k. I know it's hard for you to understand but take it from the people on this forum who have been there done that. The best touts out there are not successful for their picks there successful because they know how to market themselves.

If you want to debate and discuss this for learning purposes FINE. If you want to debate and discuss this to better understand a career that interest you FINE. But if you are trying to pass yourself off as a tout looking for feed back don't waste your time. You are a kid, understand? thats not a insult it is a FACT. You know nothing about what it takes to do this for a living. Have you ever made 20k betting sports? More importantly have you ever lost 20k? You have to learn the lows before you can understand what it takes to get to the highs. Have you ever been a bookmaker? Ever talk to bookmakers? Ever spend time with wiseguys? Ever ask advice from them?

VegasGuy quote

"Please "DO NOT" campare the stock market with "GUESSING" on a sporting event outcome"

Agreed:
Investors have people they answer too those people have people to answer too. Investors don't base their investment choices from their dorm room or an apartment. They have business degrees there licensed and more importantly they have ACCOUNTABILITY (not sure I spelled that right)



[This message was edited by DickyW on 02-16-03 at 05:19 PM.]

[This message was edited by DickyW on 02-16-03 at 05:29 PM.]

[This message was edited by DickyW on 02-16-03 at 05:37 PM.]

[This message was edited by DickyW on 02-16-03 at 05:40 PM.]

[This message was edited by DickyW on 02-16-03 at 05:54 PM.]

 

Sorry about editing the URL Jake. I thought i was reading the offshore. Got my forums messed up.

GeneralPete@Hotmail.Com

 

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Just because I can make 10K a season, why not sell my picks and make another 5K <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IF you made 10K in any season, you would have a website that didn't look like a sesame street playground. Why do you not put some money in marketing and fix that site?

GeneralPete@Hotmail.Com

 

[irahayes]

well said dicky

 

[tryingtofade]

Your comparison to investing is pure BS on numerous levels. (by the way, its Warren, not William, Buffett, and he does not make his living off of fees from "a few high profile individuals. You don't know what you are talking about).

Gambling is a zero-sum game. Every dollar won is a dollar lost by someone else. Worse, as generally practiced, there is a 10% "transaction" charge and a "turnover rate" that would be off the scale compared to the worst trading junkie in the world. Investing, on the other hand, particularly as practiced by Warren Buffett, is decidedly NOT a zero-sum game. Shares of a business ultimately have value because the business itself has a real world value. Over time, in a growing economy, a well run business will grow its profits and this in turn drives up its value. There is NO comparison to gambling.

 

Here are the facts Jake. You and Dog are the two worst cappers unit wise.


posted 02-16-03 12:59 AM
PANTHER_____86-71____+7.9 UNITS________+7.9units
PATRICK MCIRISH__56-44__+7.7 UNITS___+7.7units
THEERODFATHER____31-23___+4.6 UNITS____+8.7units
KODIAK___376-339____+4.1 UNITS____+1016.45units
HEINEKEN_____4-1_____+2.9 UNITS______+24.7 units
LOCKLINE_________0-1____-1.1 UNITS_____-1.1units
RPM________119-115____-2.4 UNITS______-2.4units
DOGBALL_____30-31____-4 UNITS_______-41.4unit
IDENTITY____34-40___-9.9 UNITS_______-22.6units
RX-MANIAC___113-117___-15.6 UNITS____+91.7units
NORTHERN ICE___68-81___-21.1 UNITS____-23.6units
JAKE THOMPSON__129-150__-34.05 UNITS__-29.51units

 

Jake- How many years have you been betting or taking bets? How can you even thing you know more about sports gambling then some of the guys here with 10 or in many cases much more years of experience gambling. Even the dullest of minds learns by repetition.

 

A quote by Jake Thompson.

"The only difference is that the stock market looks to be fairly volatile right now. You give money to make you money back. It's a risk. "

Please "DO NOT" campare the stock market with "GUESSING" on a sporting event outcome.

On a given day a "TEAM - A" can beat "TEAM - B".

You my friend have a 50% chance on being on the right side of the result. The next day brings a different event.

When you Invest In the stock market, the long term Is Involved and a viable product must be marketed etc. etc.

So please don't comapre "TOUTING" to stock market Investing.

 

[tryingtofade]

On second thought, it occurs to me there is an apt analogy for gambling touts in the "investing" world. That of course would be the infamous "penny stock tout or promoter" who is someone who convinces unsophisticated individuals to buy worthless bits of paper by preying on their greed and desire for easy riches. Hmmmm. glad you brought it up.

 

Snake-

You have cajones to start this thread kid...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Try to avoid the bad touts. There are different types. There are the liars. You know the guys. The ones with 10 GOY's, the one's that claim LOCK every pick, the ones that give both sides out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...the ones that don't update their record on their website for months at a time.

Haven't had a chance to read your whole post, but there should definitely be a link to this thread in the RR Dictionary under "RR BONE"

FYI, slander is spoken, libel is written.

LMAO

)))))))

)))

Snake Picks

 

HONOR AMONG THIEVES... HONOR AMONG GAMBLERS.

honor doesnt exist among either of these groups because a thief can never be trusted by anyone, and there is always a gambler who is looking to make a quick buck off of other gamblers.

nothing makes me sicker than the people that come here and build a following with full intentions of becoming a tout.

jake i dont know if you started out with that in mind, but i do know you were contemplating it, long before you actually did it. same thing dogball did. probably rodfather too.

 

Dicky/Ham

I can't believe that I replied to this thread.

I must have been caught at a moment's of weakness.

lmfao

 

RPM- I agree

nothing makes me sicker than the people that come here and build a following with full intentions of becoming a tout.

 

vegas- I know what you mean. I can't believe this guy can start a thread like this with his background.

 

Jake , your last shot is baseball, as you proved you knew nothing about the other sports...

I believe you had a good grasp of underdogs in baseball...

But you should pack it in as far as selling picks...

NO ONE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO THAT, BUILD A FOLLOWING THAN SPLIT AND SAY........ "LOOK GUYS I`M OVER HERE NOW, COME PAY"

One thing about Touts they all have that CAN DO NO WRONG ATTITUDE, it amazes me!

 

"After ONE season of baseball how can you even make a statemant like that. For you to consider yourself worth the money is laughable. I gave out "my buddy's pick" in college to fade for free, He has gone 6-24 what can I charge?"

It was one baseball season, but it was close to 700 picks and 37 units. Every pick was backed up with a paragraph or two of analysis. I'm barely winning money in most other sports, but in MLB I'm confident I can do 25 units or so as a low estimate. If your "buddy" can continue to his at such a low percentage over 700 picks, then you are definately worth paying to get those picks. After 30 picks, it's probably not worth much. The baseball season showed (in my mind at least), that I can hit with some longetivity in the sport.

"You say you work hard? exactly what kind of work do you do? Stats, trends? who cares all that imfo is free and is available to anyone who wants to take the time to study it."

The information is free. True. Anyone that wants to spend time looking through stats/trends/etc can do so and formulate a pick based on there findings. Some people do not have time. Most do not know how to properly decipher those said stats into a winning bet. In MLB, I do, and so do some other touts. Paying for picks isn't for anyone. Those certain guys that don't have the time or the ability to pick a game though, they are the people who would benefit.

"They can't win you money!!!! NO WAY NEVER!! What they can do is give the junkie, degenerate, troubled gambler a possible quick fix. Maybe a week or maybe a mont of winners but eventualy the juice and the fees will eat you alive."

I don't agree with this at all. Do you have anything backing up your statement that a tout can not win you money? You don't. If you followed my picks from this point last year to right now I'd be up close to 10 units, and that's after dropping 30 on NBA because I figured I would pick it up. I can guarantee I'll win money in MLB this year, and I'll refund anyone's fees they pay for the picks if that isn't the case. I know you'll probably say it's only truly fair if I pay back lost money, but that will never happen. There is a certain risk involved in both betting and paying for picks, but there are most definately touts that will make you money. They are just much harder to find than those that won't.

"As Fat Frank tried to explain to you pay touts for their LOSERS not their winners. Why is this so hard for you to understand? When have you personaly made 10k? being up 10 units (20.00 dollars being a unit) is NOT the same thing as winning 10k. I know it's hard for you to understand but take it from the people on this forum who have been there done that. The best touts out there are not successful for their picks there successful because they know how to market themselves."

If Fat Frank tried to convince anyone you pay for touts' losing picks, he is errant in his thoughts to say the least. Why would a tout send losers on purpose? It doesn't make sense. I understand that the ones that make money market themselves the best (ala Jim Feist), but if you want to further expound on this "theory" of Frank's, I'm listening, but will probably never put any merit into it.

"If you want to debate and discuss this for learning purposes FINE. If you want to debate and discuss this to better understand a career that interest you FINE. But if you are trying to pass yourself off as a tout looking for feed back don't waste your time. You are a kid, understand? thats not a insult it is a FACT. You know nothing about what it takes to do this for a living. Have you ever made 20k betting sports? More importantly have you ever lost 20k? You have to learn the lows before you can understand what it takes to get to the highs. Have you ever been a bookmaker? Ever talk to bookmakers? Ever spend time with wiseguys? Ever ask advice from them?"

I want to debate and discuss this for all the mentioned reasons. I am convinced 100% that people who are anti-tout to every single tout are wrong. A large number of touts don't win money, I understand and respect that fact, but some do, so you can't classify us all in the same category as no-good evildoers. I know I'm only 19 years old, but does it matter? I haven't learned everything and I never will. I agree I shouldn't be paid for any other sport other than MLB right now. I have tons to learn there. But over 700+ picks and 37 units in one year, all with writeups, I think I know a thing or two about picking winners in baseball. Enough to get paid a small fee (less than most bet per game) for the picks/information, especially since I refund the money if I can't win for them. I've never been a bookmaker. I do however cap baseball by looking at the information and formulating a line, and then betting games where the bookie's actual line is off from mine, so you could say I've dabbled in it. I've talked to bookies before. Never spent time with wiseguys but I have done some reading and what not about them. There shouldn't be a correlation between age and making money. I understand that I have alot to learn, even at MLB, but for what I do know now, I think it's worth the fee I charge.

"VegasGuy quote

"Please "DO NOT" campare the stock market with "GUESSING" on a sporting event outcome"

Agreed:
Investors have people they answer too those people have people to answer too. Investors don't base their investment choices from their dorm room or an apartment. They have business degrees there licensed and more importantly they have ACCOUNTABILITY (not sure I spelled that right)"

But they are very much the same. Just because you can't get a degree in being a tout doesn't mean you can't accumulate a similar amount of knowledge as those who get a degree to invest. They check their income statements, cash flow charts, balance statements, etc... I check my statistics in my own way. We both formulate what we deem to be the best options to invest in. Both have risk involved. Although not exactly parallel, there are many similarities.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The General:
Sorry about editing the URL Jake. I thought i was reading the offshore. Got my forums messed up.

GeneralPete@Hotmail.Com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's okay General. I don't think the Rubber Room is the ideal place to get business anyway. Keep up the good work.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The General:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Just because I can make 10K a season, why not sell my picks and make another 5K <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IF you made 10K in any season, you would have a website that didn't look like a sesame street playground. Why do you not put some money in marketing and fix that site?

GeneralPete@Hotmail.Com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To put it bluntly, I barely have any money. Plus I figure my successful MLB season will do more for me than a nice site. Maybe if I get a few more customers I can think about it, but there are usually better ways for me to use that money.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tryingtofade:
Your comparison to investing is pure BS on numerous levels. (by the way, its Warren, not William, Buffett, and he does not make his living off of fees from "a few high profile individuals. You don't know what you are talking about).

Gambling is a zero-sum game. Every dollar won is a dollar lost by someone else. Worse, as generally practiced, there is a 10% "transaction" charge and a "turnover rate" that would be off the scale compared to the worst trading junkie in the world. Investing, on the other hand, particularly as practiced by Warren Buffett, is decidedly NOT a zero-sum game. Shares of a business ultimately have value because the business itself has a real world value. Over time, in a growing economy, a well run business will grow its profits and this in turn drives up its value. There is NO comparison to gambling.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry about putting the wrong name. Touche'.

I know all about Buffett's techniques with value investing and what not, but even he has a certain amount of risk involved. He can't guarantee his picks will work out. Like I said, the market and capping aren't parallel's, but they are alike in many, many ways.